Posts by stirred but not shaken

8

PROOF that the Watchtower is the TRUTH...Sunday's WT fallacy

by Separation of Powers in

jw
friends

i thought the undenable proof was pretty evident in the watchtower study this past weekend.

no war, preaching work, disfellowshipping....yeah, that's pretty convincing evidence.. .

no war?

stirred but not shaken

SOP: Well thought out and well stated.

51

New ExJW here for the first time.

by WideAwake7 in

i am here for the first time ...but have enjoyed reading others experiences that i feel i can relate too.

i used to be an elder for more than 20 years .

i have successfully faded with my wife and children.

Long time elder here with lots of merit badges. I agree with jwfacts as to the types you will run into. Huge family of JWs for us. My wife and I have been left out (not invited) to some recent family events, we're hurt but understand their reasoning..which is why I would advise not to get in their face about things. Try to remember how you might have handled it when you were in.

If no one has mustered up the courage to ask you about your present beliefs or what bothers you, events like weddings or other functions/events would not be a good place to start with explanations.

There's usually folks from several congs. attending those things, and they will feel awkward because you were once one of them (an exemplary one at that) and now you're an unbeliever or worse yet, have apostate leanings.

Remember, to JWs, Satan lurks under every rock and behind every tree. They're afraid to converse about your new situation, because Satan is sooo clever. Thank our "friends" in Brooklyn for that. Now that you have looked behind the curtain, their attitude will frustrate and infuriate you. Stay calm, and remember what it was like.

38

The Present Truth is the Truth and the Old Truth is the Truth, even if they contradict.

by garyneal in

that is the conclusion you must accept if you are a jehovah's witness as my wife tries to explain to me that even if what they are teaching today contradicts what they were previously teaching, they had the truth then and they have the truth now.

the difference is, they (the witnesses and the governing body) simply believed that what they were teaching at the time was the truth but when they discovered new information they adjusted their thinking.

so since they formerly believed it to be the truth, they were in the truth.. an example she gave involved people who once believed the earth was flat.

stirred but not shaken

Strange how people will rationalize and make it work so as to hold onto what otherwise would be complete nonsense. A fellow elder once told me (this is when I was starting to figure things out).."we're still human and make mistakes, but unlike the churches, we correct our mistakes". I've since thought about that. Some of the teachings could get away with that rationale (like nonbelievers dying before Armageddon being resurrected), but when it affects one's health (life or death), financial welfare (no long term plan), parenting (stifiling education or talent) and general credibility in the community and workforce, it won't bail you out, especially when the replacement(s) is even less credible.

Oh well, we all make mistakes......said the trapeze catcher.

40

news item...9 yr old baptised

by returnvisit in

grrrrrrrrrrrrr!.

check out website for dunedin, nzs newspaper www.odt.co.nz re the 9yr old that got baptised at the convention in dunedin this last weekend... can't you just hear everyone there gushing about it??.

as i said grrrrrrrrrrrrr .

stirred but not shaken

As the Study Conductor in the mid 80s, I was asked by the parents of a 9 year old if it their child should get baptised. I responded, "whats the rush"? These dear deluded parents were responding to a recent article in the literature that seemed to encourage any quite young, but sincere children, to allow them to be baptised. He was a bit different, liked going in service and read well. I still discouraged it. To no avail. Later, after baptism, the father took me aside after a book study and asked why I didn't call on him to read or pray. I told him that I didn't feel that the adults in the group would want to be instructed or prayed for by a very inexperienced child even if he appeared to be exceptional, and that even if he is a male, that does not automatically quallify him. He reluctantly accepted that, mostly due to our relationship. Later the boy, at about 19, drifted and left.

I really wonder how many times thats been repeated, and why the wbts still encourages this. I'm sure there's exceptions, but surely those exceptions, if sincere, wouldn't change there attitude after a few more years of experience in life.

38

My appeal was successful. Now what?

by noonehome in

faders: why do we bother staying in?.

we cling to some false hope that people we love will accept us despite our not believing, even though its as much a fairytale as the dogmas based on untruths.. ive never been anything but a good friend and human being and would do anything for the people i love; i couldnt dream of shutting out someone i care about.

and its not like theyd revel in the idea of doing it either, yet its seen as not just the only choice, but also as undoubtedly the right thing to do.

stirred but not shaken

marked

35

Be Honest About This Doctrinal Matter

by lambsbottom in

wife says she always thought the wt said that anyone alive at armageddon that did not get a chance to hear kingdom message may survive?

true?

references?.

stirred but not shaken

objectivetruth: Interesting analysis!

74

7 Reasons Why Babylon the Great was Jerusalem

by Tiresias in

authors david chilton (1987) and james stuart russell (1878) propose that the revelation is primarily a prophecy of the destruction of ancient jerusalem by the roman armies.

the revelation is jerusalem's armageddon (mountain of assembled roman troops).

i see the revelation as a war siren warning the first century christians of the imminent destruction of the city.

stirred but not shaken

Last post had some typos. I think that's John Hyrcanus.

Tiresias: I remember reading that too. Does anyone remember the information about how those in the temple area were smelting gold and some of it dripped or filtered down in the foundation stones and over the years had accumulated, and that the Roman armies were intent on taking apart those stones to get that gold? I don't remember the source of that. It is interesting if true, given Jesus' prophecy about those stones.

74

7 Reasons Why Babylon the Great was Jerusalem

by Tiresias in

authors david chilton (1987) and james stuart russell (1878) propose that the revelation is primarily a prophecy of the destruction of ancient jerusalem by the roman armies.

the revelation is jerusalem's armageddon (mountain of assembled roman troops).

i see the revelation as a war siren warning the first century christians of the imminent destruction of the city.

stirred but not shaken

TD, kaik: All this is educational and revealing. Things like the Hasmonean dynasty, John Hycanus, Hellenization, sects and parties, taxation, etc. Outside reading form well informed sources..helps put a lot of things in perspective. But I think we (I) may have hijacked the OP. Sorry..but i think it is somewhat related.

Fisherman: Required: "important" = "Too many cooks spoil the broth". Cliche = "A trite or overused expression or idea."(Dictionary) Here's another..one that I was guilty of as a JW: "My mind's made up, don't confuse me with the facts". Not any more, I'll keep learning and sorting-with a relatively open mind. All too often we get presented with the facts, whatever their source, and we are unwilling to accept them. The inquiring mind will still investigate what's presented, especially if the source displays validity. "A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still". Ben Franklin. That sort of described me when I was first awakening.

74

7 Reasons Why Babylon the Great was Jerusalem

by Tiresias in

authors david chilton (1987) and james stuart russell (1878) propose that the revelation is primarily a prophecy of the destruction of ancient jerusalem by the roman armies.

the revelation is jerusalem's armageddon (mountain of assembled roman troops).

i see the revelation as a war siren warning the first century christians of the imminent destruction of the city.

stirred but not shaken

Fisherman: "The time period you mention is not part of the inspired writings". I hope you're not suggesting that that history should then be ignored or disqualified. It is failrly well recognized and accepted that the apocryphal books of 1 & 2 Maccabees is fairly, historically accurate. There are other instances where we must rely on history to have justification for our conclusions. Since there are no dates in the Bible, secular history must be relied upon. This subject is well covered in several posts here when deciding the destruction of Jerusalem of Nebuadnezzars day. The evidence exposes 1914 C.E. as a false conclusion, because the destruction of Jerusalem is not 607 B.C.E., but rather 587/586. Depending how you look at that, it will either destroy your faith or strengthen it.

The immediate predecessors of Mary and Joseph must come from sources other than inspired writings as they are traced after the last OT book.

Couple of questions: When do the Pharisees, Sadducees, or Essenes and Synogogues first appear in Jewish history? From where or from what did they originate? What of the ancestry of the Herods and party of Herod? What impact did any of this have on early Christians, the majority of whom were previously of one of those influences. Jesus and the Apostles had to deal with all of it. How were priests such as Ananias and Caiaphus appointed, and which sect did they represent? Did HS appoint them? If it's important to you, how would you be able to sort out who the King of the North or King of the South was or is? To name but a few.

I think we're going to need the help of some uninspired resources, that is if we're trying to acquire truth and well being, especially after having been misled, willingly or not.

74

7 Reasons Why Babylon the Great was Jerusalem

by Tiresias in

authors david chilton (1987) and james stuart russell (1878) propose that the revelation is primarily a prophecy of the destruction of ancient jerusalem by the roman armies.

the revelation is jerusalem's armageddon (mountain of assembled roman troops).

i see the revelation as a war siren warning the first century christians of the imminent destruction of the city.

stirred but not shaken

Fisherman..For the most part, most of us with a history in the WT org would never have known much of the history of Israel particulary the time period after the writings of Malachi. As I mentioned in an earlier post that time period is in part that of the Maccabean time period, circa 200-300 BCE. A lot happened during that time period that changed the face of Israel or Judah. Not the least of which were those appointed to the priesthood including the high priest. The Jewish nation became vassels to several dominating powers who had considerable influence on their religious processes. The Qumran population argued that the priesthood in Jerusalem was not legitimate. It went through the motions, but was apostate. The Herods eventually appointed the high priest. It would be difficult to accept that God's H.S. was the force behind those rulers.

For some background on this I found and would recommend 2 books by F. F. Bruce: "Israel and the Nations" & "New Testiment History". Also "The Dead Sea Scrolls: The Truth Behind the Mystique" by Lawrence H. Schiffmann (I listened to the audio discs in a series of 14 lectures while driving). Obviously there are many more resources, some already mentioned on this thread. If you were educated (indoctrinated) as I was by WT theology, one can understand why they would discourage outside reading and research. This stuff was fascinating. Whether it is completely correct, I wouldn't know, but there is enough documentation to make it very compelling, and certainly broadens out what was previously a very controlled interpretation of events given by the Org.

Hopefully all of us here will gain confidence in our decisions to leave behind ignorance and mind control, and expand in knowledge. We may end up in different dens, but we're better equipped to help those still under the spell. It's just so difficult to convey it to them...darn!